A 30-minute Q&A session with Jaron Rubenstein, Founder and President of Rubenstein Technology Group.
The questions covered include:
1. What is the source of content for these (and other) apps?
2. What do you think is the smartest way to deliver content to our clients other than the traditional email newsletters and alerts?
3. When should my firm consider a more “custom” app versus an “off the shelf” solution? When does an “off the shelf” option make sense?
4. You did not touch on how an app might be used for internal purposes only. Is there a solution for improving how attorneys communicate with each other and clients?
5. How would you respond to a partner asking you “I just saw a practice head at another firm launch an app. I need an app too.”
George: Hi everyone, my name's George Sanchez, Director of Business Development at Rubenstein Tech. I wanna thank you for joining us today on the latest installment of RubyLaw Thought Leadership Series, which this time will be a Q and A session, as a follow up to our Mobile Marketing Technology 101 webinar. And, for those of you who didn't have the chance to make it that day, the webinar's still available as a recording, with the slides, on the Rubenstein Tech website. The RubyLaw Thought Leadership Series is our effort to support the big opportunity firms have to take advantage of the shift to digital within marketing and business development efforts more generally, and to adjust to the changing expectations of law firm stakeholders. The way we see it, the digital marketing space is wide open for firms looking to to create a competitive advantage. Taking us through today's answers is Jaron Rubenstein, founder and president of Rubenstein Tech. Jaron has 15 plus years of marketing technology experience, deep technical expertise, and a passion for design that empowers creative partners and his clients to identify opportunities, manage complex projects, and maintain the integrity of their work. So, as we go through the questions, if a question comes up while we're going through them, please feel free to send questions at Rubenstein Tech, and use hashtag @rubylaw on Twitter, or you can send me a chat on WebEx, I should show up as a panelist on your end, hopefully. So, very briefly, our goal for today was simply to respond to questions we were unable to get to the last time, and share those with the legal marketing community. Hi, Jaron.
Jaron: Hi, good afternoon everyone. Thank you for joining us today, I really appreciate your taking the time to hear a little more about mobile marketing technology. We, after our webinar, the Mobile Marketing 101 webinar, we got quite a few questions, both during and afterwards, and we want to address those today. We've got a handful that we already have that we're gonna go through, and we'll be adding to those as we go, if anyone tweets or adds to them. I just wanna add one thing, which is, if you do ask a question via WebEx chat, make sure you send it to George Sanchez. Do not send it to me, because I do not have the window open during the webinar, so send that question to George, and he'll ask, if he's gonna play the role of asker today?
George: Yeah, asker.
Jaron: I'm gonna play the role of answerer.
George: Charlie Rose. I'm Charlie Rose today. You ready to roll?
Jaron: Yeah, I am, let me just, there we go, okay. Just flip the slide here, we already went through this, but, this is Jaron speaking, and we have George here as well. Post your questions to WebEx or Twitter, as we define here in the slides.
George: Great, so the first question, Jaron, actually came during the webinar last time, and it's pretty fundamental question, which is, "What's the source of the content for these apps "that we were demoing, and other apps?" I believe that people were asking, "Is this static content, or is this content "that could be updated on an ongoing basis?" And, I'm sure there's a difference between the two. So, we'll start there.
Jaron: Yeah, I mean that's a great question, that's definitely one of the ones that we get asked quite a bit, is, "What's the source of this content?" You know, obviously, it's gonna vary based on the goals of the mobile app, or the mobile marketing initiative. At Rubenstein Tech, we're really big fans of repurposing existing content to the extent that you can. Most firms have some level of content marketing strategy in place, and a lot of it has to do with, you know, we've got the content, and now, let's try to connect it with that audience in the mobile area. So that content, you know, sometimes it might come from existing external sources. There's an existing monthly publication, or annual survey that the firm does, and that content already exists, and the question is, how do we deliver it to a mobile audience? It might come from a RubyLaw content management system, or another CMS that your firm's using to manage your website. A lot of times, that same content that goes to the web can be targeted to mobile users in a more useful way. Maybe you're just showing them abstracts of key information, and then driving that traffic back to your website. Or, maybe it's the full case studies, or the firm's experience online that's on the website. You're integrating that content with the app, so it's regularly updating. One of the decisions you need to make is, when you are creating a mobile marketing initiative is, you know, just like any content marketing initiative, where's the content gonna come from, how often is it gonna be updated, who's gonna be producing that content, and what's that sort of, you know, content creation schedule? If you're pulling it off the website, then that answers a lot of those questions. If you're gonna do a weekly or monthly or quarterly update via the app, then the content's gonna come, it might be new content, it might be fresh content. But, just to go through some of the other sources, it might come from your CMS. It might come from your website. There might be something called screen scraping, where the app or the app's CMS actually pulls the content right off your site. We might be pulling it in from RSS feeds, from your blogs, you know, other website based RSS feeds. There's that manual content entry part, so there's the part where you're, maybe it's a quarterly update, and when that update happens, someone goes in to the back end CMS behind the app, or behind the mobile website, and updates that content, so it's a manual process. Then, there's also lots of other ways to, you know, sometimes you'll have content where it's in a spreadsheet format, maybe it's the firm's recent deals completed, things like that, where it can come in via spreadsheet, and that spreadsheet gets imported into the CMS, and that CMS then pushes that content out to the app or mobile website. So, there's lots of different sources for that data, but again, what we've found the best success with is, if you're able to repurpose existing data, existing content, that's just an area where you, you're not creating more work for your marketing team, you're not creating more work for the firm's attorneys and content contributors, you're really taking existing content. You're saying, "This would be great for a mobile audience. "Let's repurpose it, let's provide "a new channel for this content."
George: And how would you pull content out of any respective CRM? Would that be via API, or?
George: Say, RubyLaw versus another system, what's usually the protocol?
Jaron: Yeah, I mean, it's gonna vary based on the system, but generally, you want to find some sort of automated integration there. So, yeah, it is via an application programming interface, also, the acronym for that is API, and you might be pulling data via an API from, as George said, a CRM system or a CMS system. Often an RSS feed is a good way to grab that, 'cause if most blogs, most microsites, most websites support some sort of RSS feed for key content. Sometimes, that's already in place, other times, you've actually gotta do custom coding and custom development to integrate with that API, pull that content, and then reformat it for the mobile channel.
George: One more follow-up, why would you need to use website screen scraping? What does that mean exactly?
Jaron: The concept screen scraping, it actually has a little bit of a negative connotation in some technical circles, but, it's not a negative thing at all, it's really just a method. What it is, is, let's just say for example, you're working with an older legacy CMS that can't support more modern API integrations, and you don't wanna, let's say, go back to that vendor and have them do any customization, but you do wanna have attorney bio information in your app. So the question is, how do you get that information without manually having to manage all that? Really, the best way to do that is screen scraping. What that means is that the set of scripts or applications that will go out to your website on a regular basis, let's say nightly, and review all of your attorney bios on the website, and it will actually suck in that data. It'll copy the data from the screen, it's called screen scraping because you're actually getting the data from the screen, pulling it out as a user would if they were reading that website. Or, just as Google does, or other search engines do when they index your content. There's really nothing negative about it. It's basically grabbing that content, it's indexing it in the app's CMS. Often times when we build a mobile app, we use existing RubyLaw CMS to power that app. So, that content will get ingested from your screens, from your attorney bio listings on the website, into the RubyLaw system. It'll get parsed and converted into what makes the optimal sense for display on mobile, and then it'll get pushed out to all those mobile users. That's what we mean when we talk about screen scraping.
George: Great, so let's move on. This is another very fundamental question, I think, anybody that's in a legal marketing department should have a good answer for this one. We got this question about a week ago when we sent our invite, and it was, "What do you think is the smartest way "to deliver content to our clients, "other than the traditional email, newsletters, and alerts?" That's a loaded question.
Jaron: Yeah. It's a loaded question and, given that we're covering it in our mobile marketing Q and A, obviously we're going to be talking about mobile.
Jaron: Yeah, I think, you know, what it really comes down to, and we've got some other questions around this as well, it comes out to going where your audience is. Where is your audience, and where are they looking to consume the information, the content that you are looking to share with them? That's where you need to go. In the context of today's conversation, we're talking about mobile. Email and alerts are definitely a key way to get information out there. But more and more, the audience is mobile. There are some stats, we've read a couple, I'm just gonna rattle a couple of them off quickly in case you haven't heard these. There's one report out there that says that 61% of branded emails are read on smartphones and tablets. Litmus, which is a key email analytics provider, has declared, as of several months ago, that more email is read mobile than on desktop email clients. That's based on their analytics and testing of something like 30 million emails that they review. The stats actually show that 51% of email is now opened on a mobile device. There's others, there's a popular site out there called Emailmonday, they consider themselves the purveyors of the ultimate mobile email stats. They're saying that mobile email will account for 15 to 70% of email opens, depending on your target audience, product and email type. So, 15 to 70%, that's a huge range, but then you have Litmus saying that it's already over 51%. The bottom line is that people are definitely consuming email and social media on their mobile devices. I've only talked about stats from email, but there's a lot of stats behind social media being the main use of mobile devices across a wide range of demographcs, and so, I think that the point is that your users are mobile. If they're not using an app to access your content, then they're gonna be clicking through your email, or clicking through a tweet and getting to your website, which needs to support mobile.
George: But it's also, is the point also that you need to optimize email for mobile?
Jaron: Well, you definitely need to optimize email for mobile, that's definitely a part of it. I mean, that really has to do with making sure that your email templates are mobile friendly, testing them on key mobile devices that your audience exists on, all of that. So when you talk about what's the smartest way to deliver content, I mean the first is, if you are doing email, make sure that your emails are actually tested and working correctly on mobile devices. Then, you know, again, smartest way, make sure that when you click through that content,
George: Your website is mobile, for mobile.
Jaron: Yeah, you can see that content. I mean, if 51% of your audience, and you know, part of it is looking at your stats and seeing what the actual click throughs are, but, if you're doing the average and the average is that 51% are mobile, and they click through and they can't read your site, you're wasting, you're wasting good will towards your firm.
George: So it's really a design exercise, creating the templates that support that.
George: And all the choices within that, got it. So, I guess the follow up is, you mentioned, know your audience, so, can you elaborate on that, say, are you looking at stats, are you looking at Google Analytics, and see how much of your audience is mobile, or what's another way to make the case internally, that we need a responsive site, for example?
Jaron: Yeah, stats are a huge part of it, and I can't tell you how many clients we have that are very much about making sure they have good analytics, but, they fail to take the next step and actually review those reports, and analyze them, and take action against them. That's something we've been working with a number of our clients on, just trying to figure out what are your usage stats, what is your audience, your current audience, looking at, and how do you optimize that? How do you provide to your audience what they're looking for in the format that they're looking on, the kind of analytics you get out of, like, Google Analytics for example? That's one that we integrate with most clients because it's freely available, and it's a very very sophisticated tool, the kind of--
George: Will that tell you what percentage of your audience is coming via mobile?
Jaron: Yeah, it'll tell you what percentage come in via mobile, it'll also tell you even more fine grained information like that. You can find out if 57% of your audience is mobile, what percentage of that is on iPad, tablet? What percentage on mobile, Android?
George: That's pretty granular.
Jaron: So yeah, you can get all those details, and I think that that's a really important step.
George: Great, so let's move on. Question three, this is very, I guess pertinent for the legal industry, 'cause there's a lot of vendors out there, app, sort of off the shelf app vendors. We tend to fall on the other side of the spectrum, which is developing more customized solutions. So, when should a firm consider more of a custom app, whatever that really means, versus an off the shelf solution? When does an off the shelf solution make sense? So, when does it make sense not to come to Rubenstein Tech?
Jaron: That's obviously, it's a good question, I'm gonna try to answer that in the most unbiased way possible. Truthfully, which is, when we first started developing apps for clients in a wide variety of sectors, including the legal profession, we developed the first multi-function app for an Am Law 100 firm, MoFo2Go, that we developed for Morrison & Foerster several years ago. It was originally an iPhone only version because, when we released it, the iPad hadn't even been released yet. That's how long ago this was. At that time, the only real option was to create a custom, basically built from scratch app. That app is still a leader in the field, but these days there are a lot more options for creating apps for a firm or for a practice area, or for a particular marketing initiative. There's just lots of different variety of ways you can go. When you're, there were no template based apps at that point, but now there are. There's template based apps that you can pay a relatively small amount of money, we're talking like sub five, sub 10,000 dollar apps from start to finish, and those really, they might have the functionality you need. The thing about software is if, if there's a software app out there that does everything you need, and can be customized to look the way you want it to be, that might be a great option. We are steering our clients in that direction, if that's what they're looking for. The kind of apps that we build tend to be a lot more focused on branding and user experience. They tend to have customizations that those template based apps don't have. And, they tend to deliver a level of value that you don't get with those template based apps. What I mean by that is, they key thing here is not just having an app, it's not just about having an app in the App Store. Four years ago, if you put an app in the App Store, people would come, people would download it. These days, there's so many apps, there's so many app stores, you really have to provide value, you really have to provide a level of functionality that encourages people to get over that download hurdle. You know, like, "Why should I download your app?" So they're gonna hafta follow your marketing message, come to the App Store, and actually click the Download button, assuming it's free. If you're charging for it, because it's that level of value, then obviously that's another hurdle you have to overcome. I think that for all those things, often a custom app is what's going to deliver that value. What's gonna deliver something that's differentiates you from the other firms that you're up against every day in competitions for clients, and RP's and proposals for clients. So, I think that the reason to look at a custom app is if your firm really values branding, if your firm values user experience. If you're really looking to differentiate yourself, to do something that reflects your firm's brand and your firm's strengths, then a custom app is the way to go. If you're looking for something just more mundane, more simple, just get something out there and put something in the App Store, a template based app, an off the shelf kind of solution might be the right approach.
George: Right, right, maybe it's, are you trying to create a real tool, or is it a PR tool?
George: For a specific practice, for example?
George: Arright, that was great, so number four. This came post our webinar last time. You did not touch on how an app might be used for internal purposes only. Is there a solution for improving how attorneys communicate with each other and the client, which is sort of more closed loop?
Jaron: Over the years, there have been created several modes of releasing mobile content. Apps is one of them, if you watched our Mobile Marketing 101 you know there's a lot of different avenues. There's apps, there's web apps, there's ebooks, there's definitely, a number of, there's responsive web design, and responsive web design micro sites that you could build. There's a lot of different options for getting to that mobile audience, but, the reality is that each of those methods has its own strengths and weaknesses as far as delivering that content to an internal audience. It used to be that you couldn't very easily deploy an app internally, but with some recent changes that Apple's put into the App Store, you can deploy an iPhone or an iPad app using something called the In-House Apps feature, or it's also called, or it's actually a function of the iOS Developer Enterprise Program. Which is, a program that Apple's created for developers who want to create apps for internal consumption only on the iPhone and iPad. What that means is you can have a true app in a App Store that only your firm can see. The public will not be able to access it. That will allow you to create an app that's only for internal consumption. It's extremely secure, it's backed by the same encryption that protects all of the iPhone and iPad content. So there's that, and then on the Android side of things, there's also ways that you could create and sign apps where they'd only be able to be downloaded by the people you send the link to. They wouldn't be in the Google app store, they'd only be accessible via a link that you provide. So, you follow one of those approaches, you can have an internal app, and you can distribute it to your internal audience only. Next question is, or part two of this question, right, is, what can be done to improve attorney-client communications and attorney to attorney communications? We've done some interesting exercises with potential clients where we've talked about creating apps that have, for example, internal directories. A lot of firms publish a print version of the directory of contact information for in-house attorneys of the firm. That usually includes lots of information that's not made public, so it includes things like birthdays and mobile phones, cell phones, sometimes it includes a home phone, or you know, marital status, and all of those kinds of things. Children's names, things like that. That kind of information could be distributed in an in-house app, where at the touch of a button, literally, you can look up information and get in touch with an attorney you're trying to reach on that Saturday morning on Thanksgiving weekend, or what have you. There's ways that you can improve communication just by providing simple directories and that sort of thing. Providing, now the second part of that is attorney-client communications and that side of it, and there's also some interesting ways that apps can do that. One of the apps that we're working on now, it's a custom app, but, it essentially will provide alerts when content, specific kinds of content have been updated in the app. In fact, we've done this for years, 'cause the MoFo2Go app does that as well. What that does is it provides you with this additional marketing channel to the firm's clients from the attorney. If you have a partner that's publishing a new ruling, or something very pertinent to a particular industry, you can alert everyone who's got that app that there's a new, yeah, notification. There's a couple a different ways you can do it, but Apple has a notification system, it comes in and it looks like a text message, essentially. You click it, it opens up the app, and you can view that content. And maybe it's, hey, this new ruling just, you know, it justpassed, and you need to know about it.
George: So it sounds like it could be a good client service tool, so let's say, Apple was a big client of Firm X. Could you create an app where everybody that works on that Apple account is contributing content, and then everybody sort of in house council at Apple is able to access that app and get stuff, content that's relevant for him or her?
Jaron: Yeah, absolutely. We've discussed those kinds of apps where they're completely focused on one particular client, or, everyone, all the representatives of that client, and that's totally possible. I think usually, for an app like that to make financial sense, it's usually something that you need to think about, you know, it's either gotta be a very marquee client for the firm, you need to provide that level of service, and every firm has those clients. Or, it's something where, you build something that, maybe it's not just one key firm, but it's 10 key clients of the firm. And they all get this app, and they do have this extra level of communication that, it's just one more method of reaching out when you need someone. Yeah, I think that's great.
George: Great. So, number five, we get this one a lot. It's how to respond to a partner asking you, "I just saw a practice head at a firm, Firm X, launch an app, I need an app". It is me-too syndrome where the head of a practice sees another head of a practice at another firm, sort of, promote a new app that they came out with, and this might be, goes back to the question of, something off the shelf or custom, and whether or not it makes sense to respond to that or not. But, how would you coach somebody who gets that question internally?
Jaron: It's definitely something that we get asked quite a bit. And, the truth is that a lot of the mobile apps created for law firms out there, I think, have this sort of progeny, this is how they started. I wish it were easy, and there were very simple, cut and dry, you know, if they ask for X, you provide Y kind of solution. But, the mobile marketing technology arena is huge, and it's widespread, and it's broad, and it's growing and changing every day. Answers that we would have had a year ago, or even a month ago, might be different today based on the constantly changing landscape of not just mobile, but also social, and just marketing technology enhancements, and advancements in general. So the first thing is to really examine, I'm gonna say, four key things. I think, the first thing is to look at your audience. Who is the audience for this app? What devices are they using? Are they an Apple based audience, or are they an Android based audience? Are they more likely to be in a tablet, or a phone? But really looking at that audience and trying to figure out what mode of mobile communications is best for them is very important, define that audience. The second part is the content. Where's that content gonna come from? And actually going back to that earlier question we answered, is it all going to be new content for this initiative, or is it gonna be repurposing existing content? Is it the kind of thing where it's like a book that you're publishing annually, and so the content doesn't change very much? Or, is it a list of the firm's deals in, you know, clean energy, that's changing every day, and new ones are coming up every day, and there's a lot of value to keeping those newest deals, those new experience items in front of the client every day? So, what's the content? The third component is timeline. What's your timeline for getting this app up? Is there a hard and fast deadline? Is there a big clean energy conference coming up in February that, you know, or in April, and you've gotta get it done by April first, it's gotta be launched, it's gotta be live to all your users, it's gotta be promoted by then? So the timeline's gonna affect what your options are as well. Then finally, honestly, a lot of it comes down to budget. It comes down to what can the partner, or the practice, or the marketing team, or wherever that budget's coming from, what can they realistically budget for this initiative? Do you have 20,000 dollars or do you have 100,000 dollars? Do you have 250,000 dollars? But, having a sense of your budget really does dictate what your options are. At a certain level your only option might be to do an off the shelf, template based app. At a slightly higher level, maybe you can do something simple with existing content. As the numbers go up, you start to be able to do things more custom, more valuable, more brands oriented, brand specific. Really, just having some sense of what you're looking to spend is valuable in figuring that out. It's also valuable in going back to the partner and saying, "Well, you really want this, you're the practice head, "your practice needs this app, "what kind of timeline do you need, "and what kind of budget is realistic "for the practice to expend on this?" Based on that conversation, and some of this can happen internally, some of this you might want to have with a experienced app developer to help you guide through that process, but the decisions are, the results of that conversation are either you need an app, an app is the right approach, or maybe you don't really need an app. Maybe you need a mobile focused microsite, like a web app, or responsive web design web site or microsite, or an ebook. I don't wanna sound like I'm constantly trying to talk people out of apps, because that's not our goal, but our goal is really to fit the audience, content, timeline and budget to the initiative, and to work with--
George: To work with what's available as options right now.
Jaron: And what those options are available, right. And, you know, you don't, there's a lot of solutions that we see out there, like, we see people publishing ebooks for content that's changing every week, or every month, and that's not the right approach for an ebook. It's really matching, fitting those things together. Then, so if it's not an app that you need, then there's other options, and those might be three times as effective, 10 times as effective as just doing an app, or, you do need an app. Once you've decided that, then it's a matter of figuring out if you're gonna do an app, you need to figure out what's the functionality, where's the content gonna come from, who's gonna manage it, that sort of thing. The other thing it may be, yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's the, I think that's really the, the sort of key, the key answer to that question. The key, you know, what you wanna find out when you're, when you're approached to do an app. Once again, audience, content, timeline and budget, and then from there, you can start to figure out what those next steps are.
George: So, where do you think these projects get hung up, from our perspective?
Jaron: When we're having these conversations, where do they hit a roadblock? I think that, not to harp on this one too much, but I think budget is one of them. I think that there's a perception that, I'll go on the App Store, and I buy an app for 99 cents, how much could it possibly cost to create? For those of you who follow the mobile, the mobile revolution if you will, you know in some cases those 99 cent apps have millions and millions of dollars of development poured into them. So, the me-too syndrome can be really dangerous in this arena. A lot of it's about, where's the budget, is there a realistic budget behind it. And you know, honestly, these days I would say a realistic budget for an app is probably, the low end is probably 20-25k, and then the high end is going up to like 50 or 75 thousand to do something really custom, really unique, really amazing for a firm. So, just figuring out what that budget is is a good place to start, if there's no budget for it, then, you're, honestly, your options are gonna be limited. I think the other place these kind of projects get hung up is content. Where's the content gonna come from, how's it gonna get maintained, what's the ongoing commitment of the firm to creating that content and keeping it up to date? Because,
George: I think that's important with all these conversations. What's the commitment, and then maybe that can drive the decision on which avenue you go.
Jaron: Yeah, for sure, for sure, and figuring that out, and then optimizing it. 'Cause at the end of the day, you don't want a surprise app.
George: That could be a way to push back, you know, on a potential partner and say, "What's your commitment to ongoing content generation?" or, "What's the practice's commitment?"
Jaron: Yeah, and where, absolutely, absolutely.
George: Great, well thanks for that, Jaron. I think we have time for, we're trying to keep this to 30 minutes, we're a little bit over. We do have one question that came in. People, this one particular person wants to know, let's say you launched your website six months ago, and you want to go responsive. Is that possible? What are the options there for a firm that already spent a couple hundred thousand dollars on design, development, but didn't get the responsive design option checked out.
Jaron: Right, right. We're hearing a lot of that from clients as well these days, because responsive web design is just taking the web side of the industry by storm, and I think that it's gone from a new paradigm to what's essentially the table stakes for a new website in a matter of, I'm gonna say, less than a year. Which is really fast, the technology to be accepted, adopted, and everyone agrees that we need it.
George: Table stakes, right?
Jaron: Yeah, to become table stakes. That's a very short period of time for everyone to come to agreement in the tech world. The reason is because you need to be where your audience is as your audience is more and more mobile. So, I think that the, you know, the answer to that is going to depend a lot on the development that's already been done on the site, and what, how it's been done. If you opted to upgrade to the latest technologies on the back end, so you have a modern CMS system, you have a system that can support responsive web design, previewing, and providing content that's automatically scaled to mobile devices and tablets, et cetera, then it may not be that big of a deal. The issue you're looking at might really just be about having a designer go through and revise the design, and having front end templates created that support responsive. The truth is, though, that to do it right, you really have to design that front end website from the ground up to be a responsive web design, to adapt properly to tablet and mobile. There are ways to jury-rig it and kind of make it work. A lot of it's gonna depend on your design and how easy it is to adapt to that new paradigm, because a responsive web design isn't just, it's not just a design concept, it's not just a technology concept. It's really a whole paradigm shift where you're looking at, what are the key areas of content, and how do I display those optimally on a phone? You know, maybe,
George: And prioritizing them.
Jaron: Yeah, prioritizing, exactly. So, what's your content hierarchy on that page look like? And, how to we make sure we prioritize the content so that it's showing up in a good way on mobile? It's not just squishing it down. It's really a whole paradigm shift. I kind of danced around the question and the answer. I mean, I think--
George: It depends on, like,
Jaron: The answer is, it depends, yeah, it does. I wish there were a simpler answer than that. There's one approach where you can kind of bolt something on and it'll probably be pretty good. There's another approach where you really do have to just have some experts take a look at it and see what's the best next step, what's possible. We've done projects in both ways, though, on our team, so we've seen the ins and outs of that, and that's why I have to say, it depends.
George: Great, well I think that wraps up our webinar for today. I wanna thank everybody for joining, Jaron, for taking the time to extend our webinar from last time, and answer these questions. Again, these questions, if you wanna go through them again, like all our webinars, they're gonna be up on our website. And, I want to wish everybody a good day. Take care.
Jaron: Thank you everyone, have a good afternoon.